Economics and Society discussion

Here is a recent podcast episode exploring some of these current geopolitical dynamics:

I think everyone brings up great points! Regarding economic systems, I think a mixed economy is both preferable and realistic. I personally like the welfare capitalist model. We could all benefit from some “Scandinavian Socialism!” Maybe it’s just that I’m half-Swedish (my Dad’s side is just a bunch of silly, lovable Swedes! :blush:), but it seems to work well for all citizens regardless of class, race, sex, orientation, creed, etc.

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So you put a bunch of material out here. I haven’t enough time to go through it all but from what I have heard I feel I have a good idea of ethos.

The problem here in most cases is the ill defined framework. Often time people will assign a voodoo / magical aspect to things that aren’t easy to understand.

For this purpose of my framework socialism and capitalism are overused and politicalized to the point of indefinability. If I mention the concept I am only meaning the most basic form of the concept.

You must understand 2 things.

1: Capitalism was spawned with the understanding it isn’t to replace social good entities aiming to improve the commons. In fact it relies on these institutions to maintain suitability. Socialistic policies and capitalistic policies aren’t mutually exclusive. They do often find them selves at logger heads. This expression should be thought of as a balance.

2: Currency is decentralized ledger system of exchange. It is an emergent organization that seems to happen naturally with a critical mass of population catalyzed by collaborating over time. This system was almost always captured and influenced by elders, and religious entities.

Temples origins were in the banking system. Some of the oldest economic systems were inextricably intertwined with religion and worship.

Temples would often distribute resources across the community to help start small businesses. Some of these organizations provided the first regional bank deposit systems meant to out flank bandits, and highway robbers.

The most important thing to understand in a discussion like this is to understand that our system now is a transitory organism.

It is constantly evolving and all those that engage with the system are expressing their authorship over the understanding they have of this relationship. To the extent you want to move the ship you will have to have a heading to aim for. This is where your material comes in. I would say this material is a bit idealistic and verbose. I don’t discount the effort. I think the ethos is mostly correct and is a great starting point in many ways.

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Thanks for your time and input :slight_smile: As you say, we explored a bunch of material here, which I struggled to balance with simplification. I appreciate your contributions, including the succinct historical framework, but especially your final points regarding directing our superorganism; that is, indeed, basically what my input has been addressing.

Outside of that discussion on direction, I’m still exploring the systemic spaces which evolutionarily propel this superorganism. For instance, in your historical case, what reproduced those hyperagents (eg: elders) and hyperstructures (eg: religions), which adaptively captured ever greater systemic power (in both absolute and relative terms); how were such superorganism organelles (ie: sociocultural members) so emergent / compelled? And, as you’ve clarified, since our superorganism is indeed evolutionary, historical selective pressures have and will continue to change. For instance, what now reproduces hyperagents (eg: elites) and hyperstructures (eg: religions, academia, government, etc), and, again, how so? Then, what of such superorganism evolutionary patterns should we be mindful of, in order to better steer our heading towards our intended directions, (or at least, how to steer our heading away from the meta-crisis minefields our superorganism is otherwise drawn towards)?

In summary, in this thread we’ve explored the potential directions we should head towards, and now we’ve also just touched on the meta of how. Such conceptualizing aside, would we want to begin more concrete discussions and exploration on how?; if so, I would start another thread (since this thread is asking a different question than how, and we have more to ask here other than how).

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The model I often use is the bee dance.

When a hive has a queen come to maturity they split the hive. This involves a process of drones going to scout locations. They come back and do a dance that tells the other bees where the location is and how good they think it would be to place a hive there.

What we need is common space that allows you to lobby a audience and compel them to action.

It seems odd but our psychology is prone to horde resources and gain status. Money and greed very enticing traps to dwell on. Ideally using this hording inclination can be harnessed in collecting renown in a given enclave. Ideally the enclaves will be made up of people versed in the virtues of morality.

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This linked new topic may also interest the discussion here:

An insightful prediction:

The global aspects of this issue are certainly international; yet our USA has exceptional agency relative to other nations, with correspondingly exceptional responsibility.

A fair summary of some wide ranging issues:

An often underappreciated aspect of our economic future is the imperative of rationing resources. Part of that underappreciation is due to how such a perspective requires effective leadership stronger than (and despite) the backlash to it.

The previous link looked some at rationing contexts, and the following link clarifies further some economics:

Another recent discussion on how we might apply ourselves to much of these issues, for our consideration:

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It’s good to see and hear that people are getting some successes in creating socioeconomic justice. The ideas are excellent, the vision is clear, there is obviously growing support as well. Unfortunately I believe the phrase ‘power concedes nothing’ is the reason there hasn’t been more movement.
They covered all the logical issues and resolutions, and I’m glad they discussed the problem of how to get government to budge on policy. The illogical and emotional nature of fear and greed are what really stand in the way, and the elite have almost completely separated themselves from society, while also gaining near total control over our government. This may be more true of America than other nations, but I don’t believe many major countries are far off.
We need more economists and visionaries like these women. We’re also going to need a way to force the concession of power. I had hoped education would be the great equalizer, but in the US we’re staring down the barrel of the end of public education now because of the lack of education in the past.
We need more entertaining TikTok and Instagram educational content I guess, can’t force people to learn anything.

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It’s gotta be a new one if we are to survive as a species. Based on a public ledger built on a block chain and a cryptocurrency backed by units of energy on a renewable energy grid. Of the current practices of governments, obviously the Scandinavian democratic socialism model is best. I would only try to account for immigration controls and offering of jobs in the country the overflow of immigrants come from via mutually beneficial agreements between countries. Of course, i am basing this on the assumption that the rest of the world would rush into the renewable energy grid race once they saw the USA cut it’s war budget and invest it all on renewable energy tech just leaving enough of a budget for war that if anyone attacks us we have our nuclear program able to deliver.

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Thanks for the good reading everyone, i just caught up with the chat on this topic. I think I have been thinking about the same lines as most with my ideas on how to go about saving the species. I only wish we had spent more money on trying to find a plan B planet just in case. I wanted to add that we should probably consider that we might not beat the climate change challenge and/or the perfect economic model to bring about world peace challenge. We should start planning on how to leave behind self sufficient AI tech for a billion years from now when the planet is recovered and the aliens land, they might yet find DNA sequences to clone humans and bring us back. :heart::person_shrugging:t2:

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I think looking for another planet is for the billionaires. With this, they can attempt to colonize the Universe. Besides, if we can essentially make another planet Earth-like and human-friendly, why can’t we do it here?

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Right. I think that the Green New Deal should be the vehicle we use to terraform earth to an environment that can sustain us a bit longer. Still for the species to survive for another 10,000 years, and to tackle the over population problems we should consider anything from orbiting colonies to galactic exploration.

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You bring up a great point about entertaining educational content… and it reminds me of this recent interview, on entertaining political education content:

:turtle:
Some of the approach to content creation discussed in this video (above) also reminds me of the video discussion over on this thread

I’ve also been thinking about how I might design a 4x game, to entertainingly simulate (and educate) the intersections of geopolitics, ecology, economy, etc. But, probably most people wouldn’t play such genre, though other games could also educate on a narrower set of such things.

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For our consideration, a discussion on the thermodynamics of economic degrowth:

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For our consideration, here is a good video essay on economic and ecological intersections with our agricultural practices:

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And, here is a discussion on those issues as well:

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There isnt one single system you can say is better for society.
A society that does not have a lot of resources would need the government to run the means of production.
on the other hand if you have a society where people have decent amount of wealth, capitalism is great.
The question of morality doesn’t have to do with what the system of economic is but how it is implemented.
corporate tyranny can be just as damaging to a society as maoist dictatorship for example.
Rights of people, equity, inclusion etc are different from economic systems. And depending upon the rest of the rules by which a country is run any economic system can be moral or amoral