If you think I’m wrong, debate me. I think the state of Israel is morally and spiritually bankrupt. They’re highest god is the god of death and destruction, and maybe the god of colonization comes second them.
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I agree. This is evident in a recent poll where 2% of Israelis polled that the government has used too much firepower in Gaza. TWO PERCENT!
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Here is a general overview - I’m interested y’alls input on this:
Nationalist Zionism:
- A political ideology advocating for the establishment and development of a Jewish state in the historic land of Israel
- Emerged in the late 19th century as a response to antisemitism and the desire for Jewish self-determination
- Emphasizes Jewish national identity, culture, and the right to self-governance
- Seeks to promote Jewish immigration to Israel and the development of Hebrew culture and language
National Socialism (Nazism):
- A far-right, totalitarian ideology that emerged in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s
- Characterized by extreme nationalism, racial superiority theories, antisemitism, and authoritarianism
- Advocated for the creation of a racially “pure” German state and the expansion of German territory
- Led to the Holocaust and World War II
Similarities:
- Nationalism: Both ideologies emphasize strong national identity and the importance of the nation-state.
- Historical claims: Both use historical narratives to justify their political goals and territorial claims.
- Cultural preservation: Both stress the importance of preserving and promoting their respective cultures and languages.
Key differences:
- Racial ideology: While Nationalist Zionism focuses on Jewish national identity, Nazism was based on racial superiority theories and extreme antisemitism.
- Goals: Zionism aimed to create a homeland for Jews, while Nazism sought to expand German territory and eliminate perceived racial threats.
- Treatment of minorities: Nationalist Zionism generally advocates for a democratic state with rights for minorities, while Nazism pursued systematic persecution and genocide.
- International relations: Zionism sought international support and recognition, while Nazism pursued aggressive expansion and conflict with other nations.
- Historical context: Zionism emerged as a response to persecution, while Nazism arose from a mix of factors including economic distress, political instability, and racial theories.
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I thought Zionism originally came about because Europeans wanted to rid Europe of Jewish people and basically “send back where they came from”. I think its origins lie in Xenophobia. Later ofcourse it was adopted by Jewish people and made into a Jewish National movement.
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Yeah, I thought it was an, “Of course, the Jewish people need a safe place to call their own, just not here,” kind of sentiment from the Western countries (aka Colonizers).
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yeah, That has always been my undertsanding from what I read in history
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Whenever I think about the Israeli Government and the Palestinian people I can’t help but think about how our great country was founded on the same depraved principles. My ancestors had been here long before America was discovered by Europeans in search of religious freedom (as long as your religion was theirs), took the Europeans in with open arms and tried to help them survive, and then were ethnically cleansed into an apartheid state as the American Government committed systematic genocide against them. This is one of the reasons why I stand with Palestine. It saddens me to see how little has changed both here and everywhere Colonization rapes societies.
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Yeah well, that is true outside of literal physical settlement as well. Wars for resources? Like this is always a catching point for me when people talk about say green energy and stuff. Its great but to get all the rare earth minerals for them we are still eroding the little habitats for natives left in Chile, Argentina, Brazil etc. Slave labor in Congo. Genocide in Tibet. All that goes into green energy too. Cant we ever find a way to just trade like sensible people?
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I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I would like to point out though that the key differences cited are not really that big of a difference in any meaningful way. Yes both countries started at different times and for different reasons but the results are the same. When compared side by side both Nazi Germany and Nazi Israel have a dominant group that thinks they are superior to the group they are oppressing, dehumanizing, and ultimately murdering. They both sought (Germany) and are seeking (Israel) to expand their territory by violent means. Israel is an apartheid state due to the occupation and one could make the case that it’s treatment of the minority group is very similar to Germany’s treatment of their minority group. The only difference is that Israel runs a giant concentration camp and drops bombs into it while Nazi Germany ran smaller concentration camps and marched people to mass graves. Genocide by bomb vs genocide by bullets and then gas.
I don’t really see a difference if one discriminates using religion or race, both are made up things.
I think maybe both are equally hideous and monstrously inhumane right now, but i want to say Nazi Israel is worse because we can see the carnage in real time, but i could be wrong. Maybe Nazi Germany was worse only because of the scale of death and destruction that it unleashed upon the earth. But Nazi Israel is trying to start WW3 so that might make it the worst. 
in the end, it won’t matter i suppose. Hopefully we’re at least able to get our government to stop funding these lunatics.
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I think it’s worse because they know the pain and trauma and still see nothing wrong with doing it to another group of people. And I could be wrong, but I think Zionism began in the late 1800s. Not to mention the fact that Zionism is the poster child for colonialism, nationalism, and racism. I suppose one could argue that the initial idea of Zionism in the late 1800s was more pure than the Nazis’, but talk about a low bar. From day one, Israel became the monster that tried to kill them. I have nothing against Jewish people, I just have everything against defending Israel’s formation, foundation, and function
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That is interesting. Because i see how Israel can lay claim to judea before the Roman Empire kicked them out. But they are people who like to do war based on the old testament.
It’s just that history happened and new people got that land given to them to live on. We need to end the genocide A.S.A.P. That is the first priority.
I just don’t know how nobody warned Nazi Israel about marrying church and state. Did they read the history of the Roman Catholic church and draw up the totally wrong conclusions? A state married to a religion is not good. That’s why USA is supposed to be better. Because we are supposed to be the good guys and not fund murder of premature babies in their incubators. Omg. If only the people had power in this "democracy " . We need to ban all super PACs. If the rich want to give money, it should be into a pool that gets devided equally amongst all registered voters. #DemocracyDollars.
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And let’s not forget that they obtained Judea by taking it by force from the people already living there when they arrived. That’s what makes the situation so complex. The argument over who has the right to claim that land depends, in great part, on which historical period you use as your starting point.
From my perspective, the modern phase of the conflict begins with the 1917 Balfour proclamation. Great Britain, then the world’s superpower, controlled Egypt. They needed to create a buffer on their eastern border to prevent a repeat of what happened in WWI, when the Ottoman Empire attacked and seized the Suez Canal. They knew the Palestinians wouldn’t be “loyal” to them, so they needed to create a new nation. As Andrea said, the Zionist movement was around, but not particularly energized. Great Britain used their power and influence to breathe new life into it, and the beginnings of statehood were granted to Jews who immigrated there. The Palestinian majority did not receive the same rights, making them 2nd class citizens in their own country. Then came WWII, the Holocaust, and the rest is history. I don’t have a problem with the establishment of an Israeli state. My issue is that Palestinians were screwed over in the deal. I once heard Brett Erlich say that, when a population suffers through an attempt to wipe them from the face of the earth, it creates a level of fear and paranoia that, while most people cant really comprehend it, is perfectly justified. It just saddens me that so many of our brothers and sisters in Israel have let that fear blind them to the humanity of Palestinians.
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Tribalism only hurts humanity. 
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I think the best idea I’ve heard on the subject came from Cenk. Build a wall. Israel has hella land already with the previously granted borders by international consensus. Today though, I think the temple mount should be given to Israel in exchange for a 100 year peace between Israel and Palestine. Pox on whoever breaks the peace.
That way we diffuse the satanic evangelical wing of the Republican party here who are waiting for apocalypse. Once it doesn’t come to pass they’ll have no reason to keep supporting funding Israel. Whatever gets us to peace the fastest and makes Hamas less popular.
I feel like this should be easily figured out, if only corruption ridden octagenarians weren’t in the white house right now.
If Israel wants to lose it’s soul, we should definitely not be connected to them.
#StopFundingNaziIsrael
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Unfortunately, it’s more than just right wing zealots that are the problem. AIPAC, DMI, weapons manufacturers, etc. are the ones driving the “support Israel” bus. The zealots are just useful tools. Also, the zealots have been waiting for Armageddon 2,000 years. They wont be giving up anytime soon, I’m afraid. I also like Cenk’s idea, not just the wall, but 1967 borders as well. Not too hopeful about that part, though.
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We often forget that Judaism is not just a religion. It is ethnicity, founded on the 12 tribes of Judea. Theology and the State have always been intertwined, both the ancient and modern versions of Israel. That intertwining is literally part of their culture. It was never not going to be that way. In fact, I would venture to say that the Holocaust made it even more inevitable.
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I wish I had found this topic earlier in the discussion. All of you are very perceptive about the current situation and some pertinent parts of the history leading up to the present day. I’m not sure I could add much to the discussion, but if it is going to continue, I can try.
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I’ve been thinking about this point you made about the religion being married to the government. I don’t understand it. How is this religion different from the catholic church taking over as government after the Roman Empire fell? The Dark Ages were the height of that religion being in charge of governing in Europe for like 300 years.
In Israel now, do they still have pharisees in charge? I just don’t understand how they don’t see it’s counterproductive to have a religion married to the state. Whatever atrocities the state commits also tarnishes the religion. At this point I believe Jewishness is about murdering premature babies in their incubators and reigning death and destruction on anyone who isn’t Jewish.
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No one has mentioned the relationship between the Anglican Church of England and the British monarchy. That didn’t work out very well either. I don’t think there can be much of a direct comparison between that situation and what went on in Europe/Holy Roman Church relationship. There is an even greater differentiation between England’s experience and National Socialism (Naziism) in Germany (what about Italy?) and the Israeli history, which I think is very unique, in significant ways, from the other examples discussed here.
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From a logical standpoint, your point is right on target. The problem is that this marriage of state did not come about through logic. Rather, it was about faith and culture. In the Jewish tradition, the Promised Land is literally given to the Israelites by Yaweh (God) himself. Unlike Catholicism, Judaism did not take over the state, the state was actually formed by Judaism. In fact, there was NO governemnt in the new state. It was a theocracy, with Samuel acting as intermediary between Yaweh and the people.
Eventually, the Israelites decided they wanted to be like other nations, and have a king. Many saw this as a rejection of Yaweh himself, but they were allowed to have their king. They were warned, however, that if they broke their Covenant with Yaweh, the land would “vomit out” the Israelites.
As you know, they did lose the land, and it is said to have been caused by the breaking of this Covenant. And of course, Jews have suffered persecution and genocidal attacks in every nation they went to, for over a thousand years. And that was BEFORE the Holocaust. If I believed that my God had brought me out of slavery and gave me a safe, fertile place to live, but I lost it due to unfaithfulness, would I not blame myself? And when I was persecuted specifically because of my religion/ethnicity, would I not view my return to that Promised Land as a chance to redeem myself?
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