The Worker Visa Debate (+the "Right to Work" SCAM...)

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This topic thread is mostly a one-stop-shop that compiles the good arguments on youtube and elsewhere against worker visas that have few strings attached.

Meidas neglects to mention the decades of ABUSE of H1Bs by the Dem Party, as a targeted reward for donor corporations:

The idea of the program is a simple one: I can’t find the specialized help I need; I need to go offshore for it.

But the REALITY of the program is: I can’t find the specialized help I need for the cheap price I want to pay; I need to go offshore for it.

The solution should be: if you really need to enlist that special help and you really can’t find it here, you, the employer, will need to pay a hefty tax for retaining it (a percentage of the pay, since that reflects a loss of revenue to the domestic economy…) This way there still is a way to access offshore talent; but it’s not used to enable expatriation of spending, leading to a decline of the domestic economy. When an employee is hired here, they usually spend here. Musk and The Swami are espousing the typical libertarian tech bro’ bullshat. There is no such thing as “free” trade; there is always a cost associated with trade, and that cost should be offset by the net gain and domestic benefit from the trade, as endorsed by voters. Gain for who? A simple utilitarian premise: a gain of the greatest good for the greatest number of voters.

Once there is a cost associated with offshore talent, there becomes an incentive to get people trained here. In the meantime, the business can get the help from offshore until the training catches up here.

Gee, Trump is talking up a storm about using tariffs -isn’t such a tax penalty just a tariff on offshore labor, where foreign markets do not have the regulatory level playing field to match domestic regulations?? (for not having rampant pollution, providing some form of healthcare, etc.)

If The Swami wants to then argue that Americans can never become trained, well there we have it, ladies and gentlemen: he’s a lying sack of shit who will put forward any sort of sophistry to maximize his profits and those of his bros’. He and Musk are angling to be the remaining members seated in the game of economic musical chairs.

Cenk: are you getting now what I was saying, that it’s a real bad idea to talk to one-percenters in Club Trump who are fake-sipping the MAGA Kool Aid? You can dialog with MAGAs, but the ones who really believe what they say. Bannon would be just such a person.

Hey, if Musk really thinks ““free”” trade is so great, how come the low-cost Chinese EVs aren’t being welcomed for sale here and in Germany??

By the way: I find it pretty embarrassing how Steve Bannon is fighting hard for Americans on this issue, but meanwhile note how Dems are remaining quiet on the issue itself because they would TOTALLY want to keep that in their corporate donor toolchest.

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You’re absolutely right, @patrie—the H1B debate exposes how both parties, especially the GOP, betray workers for corporate profits. IHIP nailed it when they said Vivek talks to white MAGA voters the way white MAGA talks to Black people, and now those voters are furious. They were promised “America First,” but billionaires like Musk and Vivek are calling them lazy while pushing policies to import cheaper labor. It’s no wonder folks are fed up.

The truth is, these billionaires have no loyalty to anyone but their own bottom line. Policies like removing caps on green cards or expanding H1B visas aren’t about solving labor shortages—they’re about creating a class of easily exploited workers. Meanwhile, U.S. workers see stagnant wages and empty promises.

It’s good to see people waking up to this hypocrisy. The DNC won’t seize this moment—they’re too tied to corporate donors. It’s on us to demand real reforms: fair wages, domestic training programs, and accountability for corporations exploiting workers. How do we turn this outrage into action?

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David Sirota’s article from 2012:

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We need to run at least 50 representatives in 2026 who ascribe to a litmus test for being pro-working class, by supporting a short and well-defined list of attainable objectives. We run petitions and get them balloted. Such candidates will never, ever be welcomed into either the Dem or Repub Party, except in powerless roles as window dressing. The only way they will get to be on ballots is through petitioning as INDEPENDENT candidates. Nothing prevents a group of Independent candidates to sign on to supporting a well-defined shortlist of working class objectives. Even if we get a fraction of 50 seated, that will be quite some power block with an effectively split House.

I have said: once you start running those petitions, as sure as God made them little green apples, saboteurs from the Repubs (far-gone MAGAs…) and the Dems (moveon types…) will try and sabotage it. The only one who could organize such an effort that would be able to defend against such sabotage is Sanders; his former campaign workers could be trusted to administer things.

<joke>But last I checked Sanders appears to be interested in setting up a Center for Oligarchic Studies in Vermont.</joke>

Bernie: enough of the speeches; time for ACTION. We need to start the petitions; you need to set up a committee of people with working class bona fides who can draft a shortlist of working class objectives for such an alliance, and make sure the candidates do not eventually fail to support them in a serious way.

If they do, they get formally branded as acting in bad faith and lose access to possible donor funds administered by your alliance. Any such endeavor will need gatekeepers for it.

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MAGA infighting deepens as Trump sides with Elon Musk on H1B visas, prioritizing tech oligarch interests over his nativist base. The civil war highlights Trump’s flip-flop on immigration, exposing tensions between populist rhetoric and elite alliances. No clear winner, just chaos.

I’m all for any cracking in the MAGA brainwashing.

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In this clip, Cenk is DEAD WRONG.
He did not think it through.

The proposal to give green cards to high-talented people makes sense. That really is a case of America “getting the best and brightest”, as Cenk states.

The H1B program does not get the best and brightest. It’s just a way to get cheap offshore labor talent. That benefits the CORPORATIONS that hire them (are you hearing me, Cenk? Mr.Corporations-In-Politics-Are-Bad??) The loss of domestic spending that American employees would have done does NOT benefit America. The lack of an incentive to encourage training of domestic talent does NOT benefit America.

The answer is a tax on H1Bs; that nips in the bud the economic shortcut that corporations sometimes take; it still allows a mechanism to retain foreign talent if companies really can’t find it here.

Or Cenk, have you gone full libertarian ““free”” trade now? If so, I should hear you advocating on your shows for cheap Chinese EVs to be sold here. But perhaps that might impact your viewer following who work at car factories, right??

Cenk: stop WORKING WITH one-percenters who clearly have no interest in the best interests of the American working class. Ask an opinion of them? Sure, that’s the purview of a reporter. But implicitly suggesting their intentions are honorable when it comes to working class interests is patently LUDICROUS. Musk, The Swami, the Trumps -these are all people who are clearly fomenting a blackhole of capital accumulation for themselves at the expense of the livelihoods of all American workers getting thrown under the bus. After they are done doing their heist from this country, they will just move on to the next one with a high standard of living and wreck that one in turn.

How did Musk get a leg up? His family did a heist of African resources. His bots that work 24 X 7 sure don’t want you to know that!

These one-percenters are like Christopher Walken in "The Liferaft Election sketch -time to throw them over the side! And by that, I am not suggesting we go to a Mangione extralegal solution, but we need to seriously try a legal one with an Independent-based political party approach. Nothing can stop that except legal challenges -and that’s why it has to be started right away, to allow time to resubmit petitions that will inevitably be challenged (like the way RFK Jr. had his petitions challenged…)

If a Kangaroo Court blocks petitions-to-ballot, then we can say we really tried everything…

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You’re right to be angry at how corporations exploit the H1B system for cheap labor at the expense of American workers. But scrapping the program or taxing H1B workers won’t fix the root problem—it’s the corporations that need accountability.

Reforms should focus on:

  • Empowering Workers: Decouple visas from employers to end exploitation.
  • Protecting Wages: Mandate fair pay tied to local markets to prevent undercutting domestic workers.
  • Investing in Talent: Build workforce programs to ensure Americans are equipped for growing industries.

Cenk’s green card point highlights potential, but the H1B program in its current form fails both domestic and foreign workers.

Instead of targeting the workers, we need to dismantle the corporate dominance that drives this exploitation and build policies that prioritize fairness and equity.

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Right; I m not at all calling for it to be scrapped. Employers need to pay a tax when they resort to them. That discourages offshoring of domestic spending and encourages training here…

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But if it’s framed as a tax they make sure as hellfire that they don’t have to pay it.

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Clarify your pronouns; my idea would be that it’s a corporate tax -it’s for the benefit of the corporation, so they should pay it.

<grin>Once there’s a tax, it will be amazing how quickly US companies will find the talent they need here.</grin>

<sarcasm>“We threshed the fields! We just couldn’t find the help we needed except for this cheap offshore option…”</sarcasm>

[and that leads to expatriation of domestic spending and accelerates the domestic talent pool not getting trained even more…]

I can see this issue is not going away, and I can predict the next move of the one-percenters fake-sipping the MAGA Kool Aid: propose a kabuki theater tax.

If you’re being honest about it (and Musk and The Swami are being anything but…) the tax would need to be estimated based on the difference for what domestic talent would be willing to get paid versus what foreign talent would be willing to get paid (based on estimated averages; this is why they compile US census data -to estimate taxes…) Those domiciles in India, Thailand, etc. are a lot cheaper than here! And this is exactly what I was referring to about domestic spending being reduced: your food, housing/mortgage, etc. -you name it. Proceed down this offshoring road, and you might as well put up the sign: “Last one out, turn out the lights!”

Those one-percenters can then move on to wealth extraction from another country, to continue to grow the blackhole of their capital accumulation.

PS Just checked online: annual salary for a software engineer in India is $8K/year. That wage would be completely impossible to live on in the States! An engineer here with a gamut of technical experience and at least 5 years of work experience in an urban area where many corporations are based would get $75-90K (for specialized experience, even higher…) So for there to be a level playing field, the tax surcharge for an employer would have to be 800%. You could get away with a lower US salary if you would permit remote work. Then with a US salary of $50K for a full-time remote role, you would be looking at a tax based on 500%. But Musk and The Swami made it clear: there should be no remote work (which I am fine with, but then you have to pay your employee decently nowadays for commuting 5 days a week…) Personally I think hybrid, three days a week is the most efficient way to work nowadays, but an employer can choose whatever they want -so long as they pay for it.

Looking at these disparities in the cost of living, you can get why corporations don’t give a hoot about retaining domestic spending!

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Full Disclosure: I don’t philosophically agree with a number of Bannon’s points, but this is an example of his tactical strategy to take down Musk and The Swami.

[When it came to a run-in with Kushner on Zionist war policy in Stupid Hitler’s first term, Stupid Hitler sided with Kushner over Bannon because of blood being perceived as being thicker than water.]

Due Dissidence mentions Cenk “kissing MAGA’s ass”; hey Cenk: if you just did not offer to work with one-percenters on the Repub side who are UNQUESTIONABLY acting in bad faith, that allegation would never have gotten legs.

There are MAGAs you can have a discussion with, like you did on the Left with BTC, but not one-percenters. They have a clear conflict of interest and will ALWAYS act in bad faith. Saying you will work with them enables them so they can get a thin veneer of populist credibility, so they can later put over more offshoring and other unjust policies for the working class. Where’s the defense department cuts you were talking about with them? Uhhh -nowhere, right?? Somebody’s dick does not want to be mocked because there was reduced military spending on his watch (never mind Eisenhower himself didn’t have a problem with that -but I guess that’s because he wasn’t a chickenhawk, right??) And now they change gears and go: “Here’s the problem! It’s these high wages of tech workers!” And look at that: that’s exactly who we, as private individuals, employ -never mind the high costs of their bro’s increasing residence, food, education/training, and healthcare costs; you already did a story on Turks (link) about rental market manipulation by RealPage…

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More Bannon on the H1B, via Dore…

Bannon makes a great point in this one: “Show us the people you HAVE hired to date under the H1B program, and the unique talents they had that just could not possibly be readily found among American workers.”

That will cook their geese!

AT THE MOMENT Bannon is lobbying hard for American workers while Musk and The Swami are selling them down the river, but you don’t give him his due for fighting H1B Visa abuse, Cenk. Instead, you think no-strings-attached H1Bs are a great idea, and you seek to work more with these one-percenter actors in bad faith.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least get on board that H1Bs need to be seriously taxed, so their abuse by one-percenter corporations is stopped dead in its tracks…

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WatchlistTYT

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Dore goes to the tape for MAGAs!

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Watchlist II

[To the Fox News commentator: it’s noblesse obLIGE (it’s NOT pronounced like “lingerie”…)]

I think, Jayar, Bannon will defeat the Musk Monster he fed because MAGA has snapped over it. The only thing for Stupid Hitler left to do now is have a cosmetic tax penalty and claim to his cultists it’s a fair solution. When they go over the numbers though, MAGA won’t even buy that.

Bannon is tactical, Jayar; he’s taking down Musk and The Swami; then Trump’s hand is forced. Trump does not have identity if people get next that he’s betraying them. If he went after Trump at the same time as he’s going after M&S, that’s a bridge too far for the cultists. After Musk and The Swami get bounced, Trump has to make nice-nice with Bannon…

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More Dore on H1B: a review of its abuse.

AND THE DEMS WERE SURPRISED THAT THE TEAMSTERS DID NOT ENDORSE THEM?! They used worker visas against truckers; the companies just couldn’t possibly find sufficiently talented truck drivers HERE.

Dore correctly points out that SO FAR Sanders has not spoken up for the truck drivers recently shafted by Biden. Hey, I’ve been prodding him here, hoping people that know him trickle back to him. But it’s looking like he’s checked out and only wants to do great sounding speeches, not organize an Independent alliance to have an alternative to The Duopoly.

Also notice at 38:00 how Dore calls out Musk and The Swami’s bullshit on leveling the amount paid to H1Bs by tacking on a tax; they come to the exact same conclusion I did years ago when the Dems were using H1Bs as a corporate donor tool: suddenly they will be finding the talent they need here!

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Surveying the Left’s take on the H1B abuse on youtube: “Well, MAGA is anti-immigrant; so this H1B thing is about being anti-immigrant and racist…” Kyle Kulinski, Dore, Due Dissidence, etc. have spoken up against H1B abuse, but many others are being silent on the issue itself when they report on it dividing the Right (and, as noted above, unfortunately Cenk doesn’t see a problem with the abuse -and even Sanders has not spoken up on it recently!) They can only see and report on the division on the right, and it’s see-no-evil when it comes to abuse of the political system by corporations for profit!

This logic reminds me of a very funny Key and Peele poster. They are sitting in swivel chairs, smiling for the camera, and some print next to them says: “Key and Peele: if you don’t like it, you’re racist!”

I would ask anybody: so do you think Biden recently reducing job opportunities for American truck drivers through a worker visa program is A-OK? Where is the “special talent” that’s needed to justify that??

H1Bs are not spending the same amount domestically as US workers (in terms of mortgages; investments in home improvements, buying a car., etc.); nor in the case of those who have previously paid for overpriced American education (thanks to the removal of Chapter 11 protections for student borrowers, which sent educational costs to the moon, because colleges figured: no problem; get a loan which is next to impossible to pay off in your lifetime!) Much money gets expatriated by H1Bs, of course, because they are here on a TEMPORARY basis!

Either add a hefty tax to H1Bs, so that the cost distinction for the employer becomes irrelevant; or have a subsidy program for many American workers that will allow them to work for the low price that H1Bs work at. Obviously the latter idea is completely unworkable, so just add a hefty tax to H1Bs already. Once two categories of workers cost the same, clearly hiring decisions will then be made based on who has the talent and communication skills. Such a level playing field philosophy in trade is often applied (though not nearly enough!) to when, for example, a foreign product is made with little concern to ecological impact in a foreign country, but here in the States you have a tougher EPA regime; so the foreign product is barred or tariffed. Isn’t that the justification for barring cheap Chinese EVs? (or perhaps it’s not…)

The Left presently playing blind to H1B _ABUSE_ ostensibly because they think to object to it is to be ““racist”” is making them even more irrelevant to American workers!

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Numbers from Dore:

UPDATE: it appears that Musk has run up a white flag. He is conceding the wages of H1Bs have to be apples-to-apples with American workers. As Dore pointed out, that was NOT what he was previously saying, but now he is. Trumpty Dumpty must have gotten a hell of a lot of feedback from advisors and read Musk the riot act.

And if Musk really does believe it’s all been a terrible misunderstanding and that he too just wants a fair worker visa program, he should immediately give generous severance packages to the thousands he laid off and replaced with H1Bs.

It’s all blah-blah-blah until we hear what the tax penalty is for hiring an H1B (and that’s not based on what Stupid Hitler SAYS, but what shows up in a bill going to ratification…) As I had said: my guess was that the corporations will pitch a paltry cosmetic number, to claim they’re being a bunch of sports; so there’s still another war coming over this. Even the freaking American Cancer called FOX NEWS was going to bat for American workers on this!

This is just an educated guess on my part; but I suspect many corporate investors who benefit from cheap+shitty H1B software used at the companies they invest in offered Musk a bribe for trying to change the H1B policy from the first term of Trump. So Musk and The Swami were effectively bundlers/bagmen for this, and Stupid Hitler was the one who received the bag! So watch out for the misdirection here: it ain't just Musk; many of these companies who offered a bribe to get H1B policy changed have also donated for decades to the Dems...
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YESTERDAY:

Now why he used “X” to announce that beats me; maybe he wanted to test Musk to see if he would ban him!

Now we wait to see what the Repubs will INITIALLY suggest when they bring the H1B to the floor in the next session.

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Time for the Repubs (AND the Party supermajority of Corporate Dems…) to squirm for their corporate masters; and Trump will go: “Damn! That was supposed to be MY money! It wasn’t supposed to go to workers!!”

It’s pretty evident that Musk and The Swami negotiated a deal with Silicon Valley monopolies and Fortune 1000 investors where they would invest in Tesla (or should I say “prop up” Tesla??) if he could deliver a big no-strings-attached H1B quota for the next few years. And Trump was going to get a payoff from Musk (all properly concealed offshore, of course…) for bailing on workers.

Details that Steve Bannon won’t discuss; but I appreciate he’s not in a position at the moment to have a feud with Stupid Hitler. He hinted at it when he mentioned that it was coming from “Wall Street”. It might end up being a win for American workers, and we’ll take that any day of the week or administration term. Not just tech workers; but, for example, the truck drivers who Biden recently sanctioned to be replaced with abusive work visas…

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Michael’s prognostications are wrong in this Turks video:

  • First, he states that Repubs will just do anything Trump says. Uhhh, Mike: the shutdown? That Trump endorsed?? The Repubs said FTS, right? The secret vote for the Repub majority leader? Trump did not want Thune; that’s why the REPUBS made it a secret vote.

  • He thinks MAGAs will have no hand in this. I disagree: they will descend like screaming banshees on their Congress people.

This is in the face of the MAGAs, and they will accept nothing less than a walkback.

Musk and Trump wanted a shutdown if they didn’t get their way?? We are lock and load for a shutdown of DC/Congress by workers if they do not have an H1B program [AND OTHER WORKER VISA PROGRAMS] that insures the costs to employers of visa workers match (on average…) those of American workers. You can’t have American workers saddled with a much higher cost of living and education expenses while an H1B gets to expatriate money to people back in their home country where the costs for their family is ONE FIFTH of what it is here. If you could somehow subsidize the LIVING COSTS of American workers to allow them to bid so low, that would be OK; but anyone knows that will not be possible. Match the costs of the H1Bs to the American worker, plow that tax back into subsidizing US technical training and education…

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